Conversations

Conversations

Sunday, June 1, 2014

Maatukathe II Session 3



Maatukathe II
Session3
6.4.2014
Minutes of Meeting

Words, or attending to words forms a very important aspect of our activity in Matukate. Our instruments as well as materials worked upon are both words. The session started with taking up two terms, conversations and workshop.

We have said before that conversations are of many kinds: chit chatting, deliberating to take a decision, those oriented towards knowledge gain or cognitively oriented conversations. Our focus will be on the last one, cognitively oriented conversations. The second term workshop, distinguishes our activities together. We are engaged in a workshop model of knowledge gain than a showroom model (say like a conference or museum visit where finished products are displayed for knowledge gain, similar to the display of finished products in automobile showroom). A teaching and learning workshop does not revolve around the idea of a master craftsman. Instead, it implies that persons from different backgrounds, interests, and levels of experience have come together, and each one plays the role of a teacher as well as an apprentice. This also implies initiative and responsibility on the part of each. A further point about a workshop of this kind is that it does not have any particular syllabus or research methodology, nor does it seek to introduce any particular research programme. Its main aim is to increase the breadth and depth of our horizon of thinking.

The end product or objective aimed at in this workshop is cultivating the habit of attending to words, and seeking out important distinctions, such as good life worthy of desire and good life generally desired. This is the nature of concepts: they are words used to distinguish between things and for making distinctions.

Discussion on the article ‘Head Count’ by Elizabeth Kolbert
The article has as its central focus a general concern about population where food is said to grow in arithmetic proportions, while population grows in geometric proportions. The text gives a sense of the relation between scientific discoveries and factors such as agricultural productivity and patterns of consumption.

Something missing. Please fill. Some point about printing press etc. (in addition to the historical chronology we drew up)

Writing social history
Lack of sufficient food production in Europe was one of factors driving the colonial enterprise. The text shows up a distinction between old world and new world. Old world is the Eurasian world, comprising of parts of Rome, Turkey, Africa and India, regions falling within the silk route and so on. The new world is America. The old/new world distinction is used to signify the kind of ecological changes brought about by the Europe-America relations in the 15th century around the time of Columbus’ discovery of America. We usually have a fair idea of political events but rarely keep track of, or explore, corresponding social changes, or enquire into how certain discoveries or ideologies affected social life. For example, we do not have much of an idea of how the railways changed the life of Indians. This raises a question about what it means to talk about social changes, agreeing that it is not mere recounting of historical events.

At the moment we have two meta-narratives to talk about social history- the Marxist meta-narrative which says all history is a struggle between feudalism and capitalism, and the colonialism and anti-colonialism meta-narrative. Neither of these meta-narratives adequately captures our memories of the last 3-4 decades. Historical research is primarily about memory (in the Indian context there is so much stress on memory through sruti, smriti and purana).  To capture social histories, memories we need other kinds of skills. What are these skills?

What are the salient points in the text?
One, it gives us a sense of scientific discoveries and its impact.
Two, there is an argument which can be derived that social systems depend on a particular picture of the world. Today it looks like the population debate is about immigration and statist political ideologies, while it might always not have been the same. So an alternate question about population explosion would be what kind of social structures sustain a bigger population, and which sustains a smaller one. Three, the discourse about population which began with Malthus led to two responses; one an alarmist sense about the future of the world and the other that this a false fear (perhaps  an extension of the Christian fear in the time of Jesus Christ that the world will come to an end, or Christians will be extinct???). Irrespective of the response it conveys a definitive modern concern about the finiteness of earth’s resources. And a failure of planning has given rise to skepticism. In this larger debate the article observes that synthesized ammonia has some limits, and that has implications for human social life.

Another important aspect of the text is to do with relevant and irrelevant data. We have our regular distrust of big data but that has its uses. For instance, forecasting is an important factor for city planning. One of the big data a state uses is the census, a very crucial data for all state planning. Evolving criteria of judging or sorting of data based on experience leads to certain kind of knowledge.

The text is a systematic piece; it arranges facts systematically but is not primary research. It does not concern itself with the validity of the claims made by the authors of the books being reviewed. Its main purpose is to put out ideas/facts for a public debate.  The text can be seen to be part of educated public discourse. One of the requirements for such a text is that it must not contain too many technical terms, and when they are used they should be explained, not taken for granted.

Debate about the banning of Wendy Doniger’s book The Hindus:  An Alternative History
The chain of articles written in response to the banning of the book (Jacob de Roover’s direct response and Nivedita Menon and Sufiya Pathan’s follow up pieces to Roover’s article) show different ways of framing of a debate, posing for us the question about the adequacy of one frame over the other. Roover’s article begins by talking about the hurt sentiments and experiences of the Hindu, Menon’s deals with patriarchy and Sufiya’s with setting a standard of judgement. In response to Menon, Sufiya argues that once you set certain standards in Hinduism studies, the problem of free speech and banning which has become the main bone of contention can be put into context.

Romila Thapar’s article on the same issue alludes to unjust laws and its continuation from the colonial times. While this point is well taken, a critique of this would be to say that laws remain not because they are colonial and people are lazy but because there is no expertise available and no public discourse either. If certain unacceptable laws are prevalent in India sociological analysis is needed to make that evident.  In addition, strategies of discussion, legal discussion are required to change constitutional matters.


The debate puts in perspective some of the problems arising from pitching the arguments as contending narratives of justice- representing Hindu men and Hindu women, and colonial ruler and Indian society. Nivedita Menon’s position contains the assumption that all existence, civilization is about injustice, and social conflicts are a result of such injustices.  We can thus see two ways of looking at the world:
-          A) Social existence as a problem of unjust arrangements
-          B) Social existence as a learnable (as embodied knowledge)
Batra’s problems with the way present Hinduism studies constructs Hindu traditions, customs, texts, has to be reconstructed with a view to the later way. The question then is about the tools required for a sort of history writing which begins from assuming B.

Menon in her article makes a demand of Jacob’s article (like many other academics do), namely that it recognize moral problems of equality, patriarchy, immoral practices before making any further critique. We see from the colonial period onwards that practices which were not a problem, or a source of conflict earlier, becomes so with certain kinds of interpretations and mainly with the constitution of state and law. Historical scholarship of a certain kind has the possibility of becoming inimical to social practice and knowledge about it, but it need not necessarily do so. Texts like Ramayana and Mahabharata are read to get at an interpretation of the Indian society of its time. Sometimes the relation assumed between text and society becomes problematic. Literary texts for instance can be the source of history, but not the records of history. There could be variety of interpretations and that need not undermine the fact that there is such a thing as right and wrong interpretation. 

A necessary requirement for producing reliable accounts or interpretation of social life is to distinguish between participant claim and participant perspective. Participant claim is just that, one among many claims, while participant perspective needs to be understood and rendered meaningful even to the participant. For instance there is an interpretation of the practices of madi mylige which explains it as practices to avoid the spread of infections or diseases. To say this is to make a claim, a form of pseudo-scientific claim which if taken seriously can explain away the practice.

Social conflicts involve conflicts about standard of good/bad actions or conduct. It is possible to ask what the standards of justice are on the basis of which we evaluate social life. Standard setting arises out of the maturity of systems; they are rarely set by having a meeting or committee about standards. They are part of the aspiration to establish a liberal society (liberal as some desirable). An extreme of these concerns is visible when the critique of actions, translate to a rejection of institutions. This sort of summary rejection of institutions is a result of ideology critique (critique dealing with ideas).

Limits of scientific knowledge
Jacob Roover’s article responding to the banning of Wendy Doniger’s book can be seen as a more scientific piece than the ‘Head count’ article. Jacob’s article provides a hypothesis and defends a claim based on expert research, while the head count article does not make a scientific claim in this fashion. Roover’s article is not a certified scientific piece, but it has a scientific nature in so far as it intervenes into a debate, makes a claim and defends it. ‘Head count’ on the other hand is a systematic and revelatory piece of writing. Most of the time social science research is reconstructing phenomena like the ‘Head Count’ text.  Humanities, such as say philology have methods, protocols and accepted modes of enquiry, but not a hypothesis to defend. That has its’ values, so to claim that all good knowledge is or should be scientific in nature is a contentious one. But there are standards to follow. An example is the contemporary debate about the validity of Astrology which casts the central question as one between science and pseudo-science, but the question to pose is what is the experience the practice of Astrology contains, and how does it enrich human life.

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